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Wednesday, July 24, 2013

Ask Dr. Helen anything

She's on Reddit now, so if you've got a question for her, fire away!

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60 Comments:

Anonymous TLM July 24, 2013 3:39 PM  

ask her why she doesn't use her husband's last name and if she'll be sharing the profits from the book with bloggers like yourself & heartiste that she "borrowed" from your blogs.

Anonymous EVP July 24, 2013 6:19 PM  

I mostly sympathize with Dr. Helen, but redditors are almost universally liberal retards. Most of my comments have been downvoted into oblivion so far. I don't expect to be right all the time, but I do expect to be reliably hated by the church of the rainbow unicorn. If I'm not, there's something wrong. (Look for EvgeniPolunoch in the reddit comments.)

Anonymous Augustina July 24, 2013 6:40 PM  

I see from the comments that our society has not gone far from the "live life to the fullest and for yourself" mentality. Me, me, me. Plenty of commenters who found it better to be able to fulfill their desires, but not make a marriage work. All well and good. For one generation. And then?

Marriages today don't work because people are not willing to make them work. Note, I said people, not men or women. Too much of "I am losing myself in this marriage" mentality. Marriage isn't about what you get out of it, it is what you give to it.

Life is not what you get out of it. Ultimately, we should live a life for others. We have never gotten rid of the baby boomer mentality. "Be authentic." "Live life to the fullest." "Live your dreams." "I am unique and talented." It is our new religion.

Anonymous The Next to Last Samurai July 24, 2013 8:28 PM  

I think this is a good point. My parents just had their 65th wedding anniversary, and they didn't get that far by worrying about whether they felt fulfilled. It seems that many people these days expect life to be consistently exciting. I think previous generations had more realistic expectations.

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox July 24, 2013 9:31 PM  

On the other hand, there was a time not too long ago when it was not only difficult but stigmatized to divorce your husband, particularly given that most women were not in the work force and had few alternatives when they found themselves married to what turned out to be a crapload of a man.

The increased divorce rate is surely a result of people being able to divorce more easily today and get out of truly crappy marriages. This means the desire to get out of crappy marriages hasn't increased that much, but that it's just easier.

That's very good thing. After all, you only have one life then it's all over.

Anonymous JT July 24, 2013 10:04 PM  

"That's very good thing. After all, you only have one life then it's all over."

You post a solid, solipsistic, asinine anecdote and finish with a pie in the sky platitude...either your a "modern" woman, or a very effeminate--possibly gelded--male

It's nauseatingly child-like and counter productive to think in this entirely pornographic mentality that love=romance, especially when it comes, as it almost certainly will (as you even point out as an example), from a woman who hasn't matured enough mentally to begin altering what her biochemistry will respond to, that being love=devotion and sacrifice. One is "the feelies" and totally based on how the object of desire makes YOU feel. Normally we call that "self-centered" which I know in the age of self-esteem is everything can hardly be viewed negatively, but... The other way of living is supposed to come from your essential character, you love because love is in your nature. Though the profane and the bestial aspects of human nature world would rate the first as "alpha" and the second as "beta" (or worse) in terms of male desirability.

But hey, if you want to plow your way through a mating selection list, why even bother with marriage?

Anonymous JT July 24, 2013 10:06 PM  

You're*... why does autocorrect never correct it the right way?

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox July 24, 2013 10:29 PM  

Mr. JT:

Note that there is a difference between a CRAPPY marriage or CRAPPY mate and being bummed you don't have Love and Romance all the time!

I'm talking about those instances where it's just a plain and simple bad marriage.

Lord knows easy divorce leads to people exiting relationships because they don't think they have enough romance. But easy divorce has also made it possible for women (and men) to get out of terribly CRAPPY relationships.

Nothing wrong with this. In fact the latter is a very good thing. BECAUSE...we have one life and nothing more and spending it embraced by CRAP isn't necessary.

Anonymous Jack Amok July 24, 2013 10:35 PM  

I'm glad Dr. Helen is doing what she's doing, but Good God her commenters might as well be called the Gamma Squadron.

Anonymous Xray July 24, 2013 11:38 PM  

"we have one life and nothing more"

You know this because you've died and returned to tell us

Anonymous JT July 25, 2013 12:28 AM  

"Note that there is a difference between a CRAPPY marriage or CRAPPY mate and being bummed you don't have Love and Romance all the time!"

You should have kept going with the crappy mate argument and I might have agreed to say divorce was the best outcome; even Jesus agreed with divorcing a fornicator (the harsher statement was about marrying a divorcee, not kosher). But 90% of the time the failure, or crappiness as it were, is with the one seeking the divorce...and since 2/3rd of divorces are filed by women in this county, and 2/3 of the remaining 1/3 by men being sent to the lawyer by their wives to pick up the papers... I'm gonna say this is by and large caused by women. Women have destroyed every nation where they were given a say in how it should be governed.

The very very small minority of women who do not misuse any social or legal authority they are given are not a large enough minority to consider empowering if it means the others will obtain the same said power. This is for the mutual benefit of civilized society, including womankind: easy divorce breeds careless marriage. Careless people are unequal to any task.

So, don't expect agreement that just because the marriage is crappy It warrants a divorce (though I would consider sexual manipulation of any stripe under the banner of fornication). The marriage is crappy because one or the other has some expectations of the other that aren't being met, if the expectations are valid marriage promises, work on them, if not, shut the fuck up. Simple.

Anonymous Steve July 25, 2013 12:46 AM  

"On the other hand, there was a time not too long ago when it was not only difficult but stigmatized to divorce your husband, particularly given that most women were not in the work force and had few alternatives when they found themselves married to what turned out to be a crapload of a man."

Yeah, she just woke up one morning and "found herself" married to a "crapload of a man". That's an interesting way to put it. So I take it women back then did their courtship while they were sleepwalking? Or maybe they had all been lobotomized. The story doesn't start with the woman and man together, it starts with a woman and a man evaluating each other. If a woman found herself with a "crapload of a man" she's either (a) retarded, or (b) a golddigger.

Either way,her actions should not be enabled if it is at all possible. A woman stupid enough to go through an average (for that time) six month courting period who miraculously, against all odds, finds herself in league with a "crapload of a man" isn't mentally competent to handle any adult responsibilities or freedoms.

No, your framing of it suggests a hatred of men and self-interest, greed, in other words.

"Crapload of a man", what about a man who "finds himself" with a "fat whore" of a wife? Should he be able to just take her out back and put her down like an old crippled racehorse?

Socety should restrict your opportunistic branch climbing in some way, either through stigmatization or law. You leave a trail of legal carnage in your wake larger than a crashed fleet of 747's. Since you don't PERSONALLY have to experience it, you think that's just peachy.

Choose well, or don't choose at all. You don't get to tie up the court and cost the taxpayer money because of your fee-fees.

Anonymous Jou Ma Se July 25, 2013 1:17 AM  

"On the other hand, there was a time not too long ago when it was not only difficult but stigmatized to divorce your husband,..."

If there was stigmatisation, it existed for both men and women.

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox and JT July 25, 2013 1:19 AM  

"since 2/3rd of divorces are filed by women in this county, and 2/3 of the remaining 1/3 by men being sent to the lawyer by their wives to pick up the papers... I'm gonna say this is by and large caused by women. Women have destroyed every nation where they were given a say in how it should be governed."

I have a question, JT. Just how big is you ass to be able to pull all those numbers out of them?

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox and Steve July 25, 2013 1:22 AM  

"Yeah, she just woke up one morning and "found herself" married to a "crapload of a man". That's an interesting way to put it. So I take it women back then did their courtship while they were sleepwalking? Or maybe they had all been lobotomized. The story doesn't start with the woman and man together, it starts with a woman and a man evaluating each other. If a woman found herself with a "crapload of a man" she's either (a) retarded, or (b) a golddigger."

Yeah, because no one ever made a bad decision the first time they tried to make it. And no one ever experienced people changing.

What is it with you people who think that marriage ought to be forever and their can't be a good reason to call it quits.

Sell it elsewhere.

Anonymous Anonymous July 25, 2013 2:26 AM  

To writers gawking, you're the one selling modern american marriage. But fewer and fewer men are buying your overpriced shitty product. And are paying fewer and fewer taxes to the Cathedral while spending their time doing what men want to do.

R7 Rocket

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox July 25, 2013 3:00 AM  

"To writers gawking, you're the one selling modern american marriage. But fewer and fewer men are buying your overpriced shitty product. And are paying fewer and fewer taxes to the Cathedral while spending their time doing what men want to do."

Worked fine for me. She and I are still at it.

So, gather round, lemme tell ya how it's done.

Anonymous Mudz July 25, 2013 4:37 AM  

On the other hand, there was a time not too long ago when it was not only difficult but stigmatized to divorce your husband

Good.

Regardless of occasional, personal discomforts, marriage strengthened by tradition makes for a more stable society as well as family life.

This is the advantage of a dominant husband. It eliminates 90% of the friction because the movement's only going one way.


Worked fine for me. She and I are still at it.

So you haven't divorced? Why are you proselytising it's wonders then? Your testimony would suggest that old-fashioned permanent marriage is working fantastically for you.

Of course marriage ought to be forever. What else would it be? Part-time bed-warming?

-

Personal Rant:

Maybe the reason so many marriages are broken and discarded, is because people aren't being forced to fix them, and make their choices more judiciously. And the emphasis on marrying daughters to men of good moral repute in the community, with all the attendant communal advantages (chaperones, well known life history, etc), has subsequently disippated as well except for in certain religious communities. Our current cultural junkyard of instability and uncertainty and wandering-dog sociology seems the natural accumulated result. (S'pose it's like an economy thing.)

There's a reason traditions exist. It's kind of like forming a good habit, but it's cultural. It keeps a marriage going when personal whim has left the building. And that's good, just by itself. Even if the marriage is 'average', keeping it together is just healthy for them, and subsequently for society at large.

It's the distinction between the 'me-and-my-feelings-and-sense-of-fulfilment' thinkers and the more tough minded oldies that tend to view hard times as the sort of average living condition. Being able to put a roast on the table on a sunday meaning that the family was doing well. It probably sharpens the sense of appreciation, for food and each other.

Having options like we have enshrined into law and custom now, isn't always a good thing (directionless kids are another symptom). Too much freedom can be like too much elastic. It's not just kids that benefit from boundaries.

We really only love that kind of freedom (otherwise known as 'lack of direction') for the buzzword.

So my conclusion. What marriage really needs right now is a world-wide famine. Or poverty. Economic crash? :)

(My unmarried (but still opinionated) 2 cents. Poor things.)

Anonymous Mudz July 25, 2013 4:51 AM  

Maybe the big thing about tradition, is that it adds a sense of meaning. So no matter what the personal contributions of the two parties, they're still getting all those good juju vibes of This Is How It's Meant To Be, contributed by the magic of tradition itself. Kinda like Christmas. :P

Anonymous Cinco July 25, 2013 7:12 AM  

@writers gawking


"let me talle you how it's done"


Let me guess. Happy wife, happy life?

Anonymous Brain Death July 25, 2013 7:53 AM  

"Choose well, or don't choose at all". Comment of the day. I had a friend (who'd been divorced a couple of times) tell me that when dating, "It" will present itself very early on in the relationship. "It" being the deal-breaker problem(s): Poor communication, rude behavior, alcohol / drug abuse, etc... I thought back over my relationships and realized that she was right. If you consider your prospective partner rationally, it does not take long to get a handle on their character.

So, in regards to the "crapload of a man", I'm sure the gentlemen in question presented themselves as a "crapload" early on but the silly girl decided to pursue him anyway. I have seen THAT many times as well. Bottom line is, EVERYBODY has to take responsibility in relationships, and that includes owning up to the pursuit of said "crapload" in the first place.

Blogger Virtually Nonymous July 25, 2013 8:07 AM  

Speaking as a young man avoiding marriage, the idea that it has become not worth it is a massive part of it. Why the fuck am I going to get married when I can have all the sex I want without risking total and permanent financial ruin? I miss out on raising kids, but I'd miss out on that if I got married too(well, the odds I'd get to stay their dad are worse than a coinflip at the moment). If society hasn't fixed things up by the time I'm 35 or so I plan on moving somewhere sane and settling there.

Modern western society has made it clear just how much it doesn't want those evil patriarchal rapists around - so we won't be.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn July 25, 2013 8:56 AM  

If society hasn't fixed things up by the time I'm 35 or so I plan on moving somewhere sane and settling there.

Indeed. Make plain to "society" that you have this expectation of it. Be certain to list your terms carefully, and warn "society" daily of the ticking clock. If you can manage to convey a sense of entitlement, all the better; you are owed a happy life, after all.

It is, in the end, all about you, so making your demands will surely motivate everyone, even perfect strangers, to come to order. Never forget this.

Anonymous Peter Garstig July 25, 2013 10:44 AM  

There's a reason traditions exist.

Somebody smart called it "the voice/vote of the dead". I think it was Chesterton. Fits even those who are democracy junkies.

Anonymous Stickwick July 25, 2013 11:09 AM  

Why the f*** am I going to get married when I can have all the sex I want without risking total and permanent financial ruin?

Dr. Helen is right that men are getting a raw deal in marriage these days, so I'm not unsympathetic to men opting out. However, if you think you can have all the sex you want without any kind of financial (or other) risk, you're not paying attention. In spite of what our humanist, hedonist culture has taught young people, the primary function of sex is reproduction. Even the best methods of birth control, short of sterilization, will fail. The result of that will either be the destruction of your own progeny or you finding yourself on the hook financially for a child you did not anticipate. The bonus is a lifelong connection to the virtuous young woman you copulated with for a night, and her power over you through your progeny. That is, if she doesn't later regret the encounter and falsely claim you raped her, with you subsequently spending your life savings and a year or more in legal hell trying to avoid jail.

I miss out on raising kids, but I'd miss out on that if I got married too(well, the odds I'd get to stay their dad are worse than a coinflip at the moment).

The current statistics from the CDC indicate that for men, the odds of a first marriage ending in divorce or separation are 1:3. That would give any reasonable man pause, but let's not overstate things; it's not worse than a coin flip. And a man can mitigate the odds of divorce by choosing well and learning Game.

Anonymous Harry Dunne And Lloyd Christmas July 25, 2013 11:29 AM  

""Choose well, or don't choose at all"."

People have the freedom in a marriage to decide to work things out. It is their choice.
They most certainly do not need your approval.


"Women have destroyed every nation where they were given a say in how it should be governed."

Actually, since men have been the predominant rulers, they have fucked things up more on a consistent basis. Women have a LONG ways to go to catch up in that regard.


"And a man can mitigate the odds of divorce by choosing well and learning Game."

Indeed! To furiously copulate with every woman in sight without any obligation to their well-being.


"This is the advantage of a dominant husband. It eliminates 90% of the friction because the movement's only going one way."

Those days are long since over, thank God. Little Miss Muffet complying to the every whim of her Prince Charming? Please, nigga!

Anonymous Curlytop July 25, 2013 11:43 AM  

@Harry Dunn...

Clearly you didn't read Stickwick's first paragraph or have reading comprehension issues if you are going to make this statement after her post: "Indeed, To furiously copulate with every woman in sight without any obligation to their well-being."

Bc that's exactly what women have now with the present set-up. Can't have it both ways, sweetheart. Can't kick the PRince out and then complain that he ain't "providing".

So willing to lay it all at the male's feet it seems. What about women actually *gasp* taking responsibility for their actions, huh? How about them behaving more chaste and ensuring that their offspring have a better chance in life by being more selective in who they spread their legs for?

No Little Miss Muffet threw the Prince out the door and is a liberated whore to the state begging for little crumbs of welfare and still living in the slum. Oh, but hey! She's not chained to that mean ole' Prince who had the audacity to expect respect and for Muffet to raise the kids in return for providing for her each day and setting her up in a nice home. Talk about getting no satisfaction. As the saying goes: "Some women simply have a taste for shi..."

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn July 25, 2013 11:48 AM  

Little Miss Muffet complying to the every whim of her Prince Charming?

I have yet to hear this version, wherein Prince Charming has his whey with Miss Muffet.

Anonymous Stickwick July 25, 2013 12:11 PM  

Curlytop: Clearly you didn't read Stickwick's first paragraph or have reading comprehension issues ...

He did choose a handle that suggests "dumb and dumber." One wonders whether it's clever satire or on the nose.

Anonymous JT July 25, 2013 12:55 PM  

"Actually, since men have been the predominant rulers, they have fucked things up more on a consistent basis. Women have a LONG ways to go to catch up in that regard."

Without clear outline of what constitutes a fuck-up in your mind I'll have to say that since the human species hasn't gone extinct yet, I'd say men have a good track record, anything more than that is a collaborative effort. Your first problem is you think political and legal power is the end all be all, it is not; it is at best only half of the equation. Matriarchal structured societies have a track record of collapsing and being dominated by any other kind, doesn't matter what. Societies which sway toward women dominance last just one generation longer typically, but not more than four, until they become unstable and either collapse and get replaced or they are conquered by barbarian hordes.

Anonymous JT July 25, 2013 1:00 PM  

And species extinction comes usually by a replacement by a superior one, or so darwin would have us believe. New speciation comes from mutation, and the sex most susceptible to mutation is the male.

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox and Mudz July 25, 2013 3:07 PM  

Mudz:

"Maybe the reason so many marriages are broken and discarded, is because people aren't being forced to fix them"

So now you want to FORCE people to stay in relationships they don't want to be in? How libertarian and dictatorial of you. Why not force them to have children? Force them to go to church. Force them to do all sorts of things you think they ought to do??

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox July 25, 2013 3:09 PM  

"Bottom line is, EVERYBODY has to take responsibility in relationships, and that includes owning up to the pursuit of said "crapload" in the first place."

Wouldn't "owning up" to the mistake mean fixing it by getting out of the relationship and not burdening yourself with it for the rest or your life???

Blogger Virtually Nonymous July 25, 2013 3:25 PM  

It is, in the end, all about you, so making your demands will surely motivate everyone, even perfect strangers, to come to order. Never forget this.

The only "threat" that I'm making is that I simply won't be there - if society doesn't want to accomodate my desire for a marriage that doesn't give the woman the ability to ruin my life on a whim, I won't get married. The "threat" is that I simply won't be there, although the message I get from society is that they don't even want me there so I can't see why you call it a demand that other people will have to listen to.

I suppose the absence of white males working for nothing is a serious problem for useless people after all.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn July 25, 2013 4:00 PM  

if society doesn't want to accomodate my desire for a marriage that doesn't give the woman the ability to ruin my life on a whim, I won't get married.

And you think that an inability to escape her will make her less impelled by whim? My, you are young and idealistic.

...although the message I get from society is that they don't even want me there...

Then it were best you left sooner than later. Why squander your young and productive years for this society that does not wish you present and that you so despise? Get along with you to your newfound paradise; as you believe none wish you here, your continued residence makes no one happy. What purpose?

I do wish you all the joys of marrying a woman of this faraway land, wherever it may be. I am sure you will find no women there who would wed you only for your American wealth, and of a certainty they are all of them virgins, even the widows and former prostitutes.

Perhaps you will have to swear faith to some foreign god, but at least you will have your peaceful domestic...

...Damn me, but I am getting soft. I am laughing aloud as I write this. I suppose that is enough; my point is made.

Anonymous Harry Dunne And Lloyd Christmas July 25, 2013 4:31 PM  

"Societies which sway toward women dominance last just one generation longer typically, but not more than four, until they become unstable and either collapse and get replaced or they are conquered by barbarian hordes."

That being men, who believe their ways to control a society are "better". So they destroy something to make something else, only to destroy it again. Thank you for making my point.


"...Damn me, but I am getting soft. I am laughing aloud as I write this. I suppose that is enough; my point is made."

That marriage and having children is a personal choice, indeed.

Anonymous Loki Sjalfsainn July 25, 2013 5:00 PM  

I tell you, this place simply is not attracting the quality of trolls it did when it attracted me.

Anonymous VD July 25, 2013 5:28 PM  

So now you want to FORCE people to stay in relationships they don't want to be in?

Yes, just as the libertarian wants to FORCE people to abide by contracts they freely entered into, but don't want to recognize anymore.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who would like to stop being in their mortgage relationship with their bank without having to recognize the contract.

Anonymous Mudz July 25, 2013 6:33 PM  

So now you want to FORCE people to stay in relationships they don't want to be in? How libertarian and dictatorial of you. Why not force them to have children? Force them to go to church. Force them to do all sorts of things you think they ought to do??

Lol, why did you think I was libertarian? I'm apolitical. I could probably be characterised as some flavour of conservative though, I guess. (You kinda mixed up your ironies though.)

And what is law except the dictation of what you can or cannot do?

Yes, people should be forced to stick to a marriage commitment they've made. Just like people are forced to stay in jobs they don't like, even if we're not considering children here. The way people will compensate for the risks of bad choices is to choose carefully or not at all. The culture and even laws will adapt, and we'll be back to more healthy circumstances based on the unnegotiable cornerstone of marriage lasting.

That's called thinking long-term. It may suck personally for the people who haven't learned this kind of discretion in the short-term, and our communities aren't set up to this sort of dynamic anymore, but the following generations will have.

I hardly think it's necessary to force parents to have children, and I see no reason to, but if there was a Children of Men sitch, there'd probably be a law like that. China has laws of limitations after all.
Forcing them to go to church could be socially beneficial, I suppose. But these things would be forcing them to make the initial choice. In the case of marriage, they made the choice themselves, and the idea is to reduce the ability of citizens to renege on marital commitment, and eliminate their ability to do it for non-primary reasons.

If they can't follow through on a commitment, the idea is that they shouldn't be making the commitment in the first place.

The following generation shall be a wiser one, hopefully. I don't like this kind thinking where marriage is just some sort of potluck, where you need the exact right ingredients to go together and you just dip in and hope for the best. That's crap. It doesn't need to be that way at all. The things that make a marriage pleasant or workable are very basic simple things, not finely tuned superficial tics.

A wife feeds her husband. Husband is happy. Husband brings home money and sturfs. Wife is happy. That kind of thing.

(I think my favourite movie line is one from 'Rear Window'. Girl + Boy, see each other, like each other, get married, bam.)

Anonymous Mudz July 25, 2013 6:34 PM  

Read only if you like long spiels:

The surface things have only become an issue now, because we've mucked up the basics and levelled them out so we only have the superficial things to focus on anymore, and in absence of a straightforward How-To from family, we just tend to fumble around a lot and hope for the best. There used to be a whole thing where a son or a daughter was instructed, quite trafditionally, in how to be a good husband or a good wife. I don't think people are receiving that kind of instruction any more (or at least, not good instruction), because Tradition is Bad and Constricting.

I think, another way it kind of seems to me is: Relationships cost too much in terms of energy. You gotta share everything, be fair about everything, take turns, think carefully about your combined attributes when making any choice, be gender equal in everything. It just ends up that you end up with no-one to thank, nothing is made easier, and it all gets more complicated and harrowing.

The most powerful component (that I've observed) in marriages, and even everyday interaction between men and women, is the power and ability to be straight-up grateful for something. Someone made your day easier or improved it in some way. If all a chick did with her whole day was feed you and look pretty, you'd probably think she was all sorts of amazing and wonderful. She could have spent the rest of the day watching TV, and she'd still be a goddess of the hearth. I've had my heartstrings tugged just to have a girl fix me a sandwich. That's not a joke, she really did that. And another girl almost swooned because I said 'cheers', when she brought me my order.

(When I was working in construction, I think that if at the end of the day, some girl had come along, made my dinner, washed my feet, for like a week, I'd have married her on the spot.)

And I don't think guys mind spending ze moneys on their wives or girlfriends (neighbours, friends, strangers on the street), when said person acts like she's the first wife of Solomon, or otherwise flails and enthuses.

These kind of emotional rewards are powerful motivators, methinks, for any interaction or relationship. I think everything else would be trivial in comparison.

It just seems more 'energy efficient' for one person to do something for the other, a clear cut gift, where you can thank someone, and they can bask in admiration, than to figure out precise techniques for sharing in every event. You get something out of it. You don't really get anything out of it if you both helped make the cake, except being full of cake.

It's a similiar principle as familiarity breeds contempt. We (or, many) aren't in a situation where we're forced to appreciate the big things that marriage offers us (or could offer us). It's presumably the modern cultural mind-set. Where we have to be these thousand amazing, detailed, fine-tuned little things to entertain each other, which makes boredom the enemy of marriage. I think, personally, that the requisites of good marriage should really be something like:

A) Wife is an interested mother (or interested to be).
B) Wife conscientiously performs basic wifely duties (cooking, cleaning, whatever domestics they are). I.e. housewife.
C) Follows the lead of the husband.


And for the husband, I guess basically, 'make lots of money, discipline the kids, make ze big decisions'.

And boom, that's a simple formula for marriage and its benefits. Everyone gets their own special area, and they love each other for it. (Plus: Hey, someone to have sex with! Awesome!) Greater than the sum of its parts.

Anonymous Mudz July 25, 2013 6:34 PM  

And you'll notice that still, in some places, usually the impoverished ones, those are precisely the qualities everyone focuses on, brags about or laments. Very uncomplicated virtues and vices.

And that's really all I think you really want from each other. You do something that makes life for each other better or easier, a 'division of labour' that works out for both parties. And it doesn't require some sort of microscopically calibrated personas for both parties to fulfill these functions.

For every reason you allow to dissolve a marriage, you've weakened marriage as a whole. Sometimes you gotta go the tough route to avoid decay.


Again, just my opinions, based on what I've observed. Adjust your TV set for ignorance.

Anonymous Mudz July 25, 2013 6:35 PM  

Sheezh, I really do write too much. Sorry guys.

Anonymous Brain Death July 25, 2013 7:31 PM  

"Wouldn't "owning up" to the mistake mean fixing it by getting out of the relationship and not burdening yourself with it for the rest or your life???"

Absolutely. Cut your losses!

Initially, I was thinking more of after the fact, where said princess blames everything wrong in her life on some "crapload" in her past.

Anonymous Augustina July 25, 2013 7:32 PM  

Nah, Mudz, I appreciate your insights. So keep writing.

Anonymous Luke July 25, 2013 11:42 PM  

JT July 25, 2013 12:28 AM

"...90% of the time the failure, or crappiness as it were, is with the one seeking the divorce...and since 2/3rd of divorces are filed by women in this county, and 2/3 of the remaining 1/3 by men being sent to the lawyer by their wives to pick up the papers... I'm gonna say this is by and large caused by women. Women have destroyed every nation where they were given a say in how it should be governed."

Sounds about right in every specific to me.

Let women inclined toward frivorce leave with only the clothes on their back + what they brought into the marriage (all children and marital property left behind, NO alimony of any kind), and watch the divorce rate drop like dresses after 10 PM on prom night. Add in all filer (if pre-1960 divorce grounds not proven in court) automatically getting hit with child support and being put on a widely-used national "people to avoid dating" registry, and it'd go back to pre-1960 in under 18 months.

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox July 26, 2013 1:35 AM  

" I think, personally, that the requisites of good marriage should really be something like:

A) Wife is an interested mother (or interested to be).
B) Wife conscientiously performs basic wifely duties (cooking, cleaning, whatever domestics they are). I.e. housewife.
C) Follows the lead of the husband."

Here's what 22 years looks like:

A) We each respect the others ambitions
B) The kid got disciplined by us both and raised by both
c) We both cooked, cleaned
D) Made big decisions together
E) We each play the games we want
f) We F*cked a lot.
G) We both work
H) We hold hands when we walk down the street
I) We are partners in everything and have each others back

Pretty simple

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox July 26, 2013 1:38 AM  

"Yes, people should be forced to stick to a marriage commitment they've made. Just like people are forced to stay in jobs they don't like, even if we're not considering children here. The way people will compensate for the risks of bad choices is to choose carefully or not at all. The culture and even laws will adapt, and we'll be back to more healthy circumstances based on the unnegotiable cornerstone of marriage lasting."

I thank the gods your haywired vision of a fascistic, theocratic-like society is considered so weird and strange now that it would never even be considered an option by the insane, let alone the conservative or libertarian among us.

Anonymous Mudz July 26, 2013 2:44 AM  

Which is why marriage is doing so wonderfully.

If you think my rather straight-forward rendition of my grandparent's marriage is strange, then that's encouraging. It should sweep the world in a generation or two.

Lol, 'theocratic'? Random.

You can call it fascist if you like. The dictionary definition is pretty loose on that one. One of them is 'right-wing', apparently.

I'm not conservative or libertarian? So I'm a liberal? A liberal fascist, whaddya know? ;)

A) We each respect the others ambitions
B) The kid got disciplined by us both and raised by both
c) We both cooked, cleaned
D) Made big decisions together
E) We each play the games we want
f) We F*cked a lot.
G) We both work
H) We hold hands when we walk down the street
I) We are partners in everything and have each others back


If they had only known! WHY DIDN'T THEY HOLD HANDS??

I'm sure it must be delightful for you both to return from work to a dark house, then discuss together who's going to cook dinner and do the chores, how you're going to discipline your child, who's big decision you'll fairly support. Sounds like the perfect respite from a long day of work, to repeat over and over again.

I think it's pretty dubious that 9 mostly tangential requisites is better than 6 basic ones for marriage, but you can claim it's what anchored your relationship if you like(because marriage only works if you do just everything together, whatever those things are). But I shall regard the claim with great skepticism.

Anonymous Anonymous July 26, 2013 3:18 AM  

Worked fine for me. She and I are still at it.
So, gather round, lemme tell ya how it's done.
"


So sayeth Writers Gawking. So I inspected your used car, But I have some certain nagging questions about it. Are you in debt?


R7 Rocket

Anonymous Mudz July 26, 2013 3:44 AM  

You know, that list got me thinking. If those were what made a marriage, why be married at all? The only two things on there that required a partner was a kid and sex. And if that was the point of marriage, then you might as well just have a concubine instead. (Which would ironically, create the very patriarchal society you seem to detest.)

Everything else just looks like, 'omigosh, we're totally doing everything at the SAME TIME, we're like TWINS!" XD

Blogger Virtually Nonymous July 26, 2013 4:06 AM  

Loki, I'm not American and I'd appreciate not being called that again.

Secondly, trying to shame me for not giving up my life in service of you isn't something that's going to work on anyone with a brain. If society wants men to get married and contribute, telling us that we're idiotic slaves who should count ourselves lucky to die for people like you isn't going to help all that much.

Anonymous Writers Gawking At Vox July 26, 2013 9:51 AM  

Mudz,

"You know, that list got me thinking. If those were what made a marriage, why be married at all? The only two things on there that required a partner was a kid and sex"

The same could be said of your list. So, whether a marriage is necessary to complete the list isn't the issue. The issue is what acts or commitments or pattern, etc make a marriage last.

One thing neither you re I put on our list was compatibility. But that's a given, right?

You and I have a different perspective o what makes for a successful marriage. If two people believe in strict biblical patriarchy, then your list is, while limited, workable. If the patriarch model isn't what the couple believes is rational or good for the coupling or each other, then my list is going to be more workable for making a marriage successful.

And don't mock holding hands. Gestures are important. Saying "I love you" regularly or telling the other person "thank you" or holding hands are the kind of gestures that tells the partner important things beyond what is said or done.

Anonymous JT July 26, 2013 2:26 PM  

"That being men, who believe their ways to control a society are "better". So they destroy something to make something else, only to destroy it again. Thank you for making my point."

Nothing proven except that female run societies can only exist in a vacuum. As soon as anything else is presented it proves superior both in resources as well as overall happiness.

Anonymous JT July 26, 2013 2:46 PM  

Did I forget it is also the greater will behind a far superior martial prowess?

In your imagination killing is an intrinsic evil, except when you do it. That too is a product of feminized society. A male run society knows that conflict is going to happen, and that women, while human beings, are also resources for production and propagating your tribe--and everything is tribal, the female nature thinks in terms of getting along with someone seeking to overpower and dominate you if you happen to be freeborn.

Men prepare for the fight, even if there is no enemy, they must be the ones prepared to fight for their homes, their wives, children, property, and if they must give up their life they have to consider that as well. That is the congenital mind a man is born with.

The woman looks around for someone to be submissive to. Like a congenital vulnerability to stockholme syndrome. No matter how butch she is, all that means is she's holding out for more masculine than she is. Period. That's where the seeds of feminine society destruction are. It's not an inferiority, it is not a profanity, like all things it begins as something good.

Anonymous Mudz July 26, 2013 6:11 PM  


The same could be said of your list. So, whether a marriage is necessary to complete the list isn't the issue. The issue is what acts or commitments or pattern, etc make a marriage last.


You could say it, but you'd be wrong.

No, the issue, where my list is concerned, is what a marriage is or what it requires, not what 'makes it last'. And what makes it last is not divorcing. What makes it enjoyable, is something else again. I think 'gratitude' is my only foray in that direction.

My list is not something to complete, it's something a good marriage should already have in order to sustain it. It's the means, not the goal. (Which is why brides get or used to get dowries. Another advantage of ye olde arrangemente.)

Your list is infantile. It looks like a step-by-step guide for a good date and other trivialities, not a marriage. It has no practical value.

The husband and wife doubling up on everything? Why? Why does it help a marriage if she gets to play the games she likes just as you play the games you like? How is it an improvement over you just playing the games you liked when you were single? Why not just invite a buddy over, and you can play some COD?

Your list is not 'workable' by any means. It's almost completely irrelevant. It has no bearing on the basic attributes of the marriage. Other than you think the word 'we' has magical properties.

It doesn't matter if people currently believe or don't believe in the kind of arrangement I'm thinking of. I don't know why you thought it did. People beliefs are not relevant to the benefits of the arrangement I'm arguing, that's kind of the point. If they don't believe in it, they should.

(Not that my list is perfect. 'Lots of money' is pretty vague. Maybe 'conscientious provider'.)

I'm sure couples love holding hands. I'm sure it's a nice reminder of renewed affection as well as just generally pleasant. But that's romantic technique, not marriage. They're separate aspects. You don't divorce because your partner didn't hold your hand often enough. You just hold their hand. Or say 'I lurves holding hands, hold mine, hold it now!'.

I think, at the base of it, marriage could be considered an almost professional relationship. That's the crux of it. (And lots of people often don't get that, because they have a flight reflex to 'corrupting' their magical romantic dreams with something so unromantic.) Romance is all sorts of fun I bet, but it's a separate domain, it's not the necessary or defining attribute of marriage. No married couple has the intrinsic obligation to be sweet and romantic (which would be kinda self-defeating, wouldn't it?). They just need to be doing their part.

Boring people can has marriage too.

There are people who have gotten married, simply because the guy felt a need to protect the girl, and marriage was the natural way to go with it. Others get married because they're hopelessly, head-over-heels in love (and how long will you hang your hat on that for?).

It doesn't matter. As long as they fulfill the basic functions, their marriage works.

One thing neither you re I put on our list was compatibility. But that's a given, right?

Lol, 'compatible'. It's just a code-word for all those superficial qualities I was talking about. So see above.

As long as they both have the right genitalia, they're compatible.

The only important thing I missed out from my list was sex. But I figured that was a given.

Anonymous Mudz July 26, 2013 6:18 PM  

(It's so nice to be young and certain. You get to be expert in so many things.)

Anonymous Anonymous July 26, 2013 6:20 PM  

Writers Gawking still hasn't answered my question on whether he has debt or not. And now he's claiming that his shitty used car he wants to sell me can occupy two places at once.

R7 Rocket

Anonymous Mudz July 26, 2013 6:32 PM  

Actually, come to think of it, I did say something like 'these things make a pleasant marriage' or somesuch.

So if you were confused, it might have been my fault.

Let me make the distinction.

1) Happy marriage. Like having a rewarding job. Important.

2) Romance. Entertainment, joy. Drunk on love. That kinda stuff. All that giddy goodness. Non-essential (but still awesome).

Anonymous JT July 27, 2013 11:39 AM  

Mudz speaks my language. All a marriage requires is compatible genitalia, commitment (otherwise known as the not frivolous, adult type of love), and a desire to no longer be a "I" ...or at least very much less of one, because you must play a role. Some people are not cut out for this.

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